HNW question

No ideas, no changes, no development, no entertainment, and no remorse
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WhiteWarlock
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Re: HNW question

Post by WhiteWarlock » Tue Jan 14, 2020 7:47 pm

JLIAT wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 7:13 pm
NoiseWiki wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 6:57 pm
crochambeau wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 6:51 pm
I'm a gnat's whisker from splitting this portion of the thread into the shitpail that is MISC so it may stay on topic, dig?
Does seem like it's gotten away from the OP having to do with appropriate track durations :lol:
That's interesting, LPs give 20 minutes, I think on Meatloaf's Bat out of Hell they had to speed up the final recording to fit. Singles 4 ish minutes.. so dictating pop songs lengths. I think Hey Jude was the longest? The difficulty with CD's longer lengths was in part 'cured' by 'bonus tracks'.

Its said that the 74 minute original CD was to be able to record all of Beethoven 9th. But if you go to a Wagner opera, my wife did, notice the audience have picnic baskets - 5 ish hours.
LP Vinyl is 23 minutes per side maximum at 33rpm... thus the reason for c46 tapes

12″ @ 33 1/3 RPM: 18 minutes per side is ideal, 20 minutes per side is still good, 22-23 minutes per side may cause issues depending upon the content....
Last edited by WhiteWarlock on Tue Jan 14, 2020 7:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: HNW question

Post by JLIAT » Tue Jan 14, 2020 7:56 pm

crochambeau wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 7:31 pm
JLIAT wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 7:07 pm
I've no idea why you posted the china doll thing to my serious reply to the OP.
JLIAT wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 11:31 am
The listening time for HNW is zero. If you are listening to it for some reason, aesthetic, whatever, you miss the point.


That is why I essentially said the reasoning you presented amounted to a shell of a shape that can offer benefit through being undone.
I said - and this is off topic - that in answer to the question - some interested in HNW would say zero. And that is not my knowledge, and if they want to look up sources they are there. If others think 20 minute, 40, 5,878 etc FINE.
crochambeau wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 7:31 pm
That, and the bearing of which you're repeating this "point" (or lack thereof) as if from an authoritative position, as opposed to something rooted in your own experience.
I said it was not from any authoritative position, but from others, and can be deduced. The only authority here that has been raised is yours as moderator. And it is a point, sub heading "No ideas, no changes, no development, no entertainment, and no remorse " - but only for how many minutes? "No ideas, no changes, no development.." from this one might say the time equally has to be of no importance. Rooted in my own experience now? OK http://www.jliat.com/HNW510/index.html = 510 4.0GB diskes of HNW wav = 143.7 days...
crochambeau wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 7:31 pm
We care not about the posted speed limit, or the line of reasoning that settled upon that particular number, only how fast or slow we prefer to drive our cars.

Does that help clarify?
Yes. If as you say HNW's limits are purely subjective, then it follows why not its content, as others see it scary or comforting. Then add some tunes.

And so "No ideas, no changes, no development, no entertainment, and no remorse " means nothing other than a subjective statement. Moreover places the HNW producer left to be happy and content with what they do, cheer up then Mr Vomir.

You might do what you prefer... This from Misc "do you advocate using life to obsess over death rather than enjoying what pleasures are available? "

I'd say a fair amount of Music and Art was not about seeking what one prefers.

"I went down to the crossroads
Fell down on my knees
I went down to the crossroads
Fell down on my knees
Ask the Lord above for mercy
Save me if you please"
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Re: HNW question

Post by RUBBISH » Tue Jan 14, 2020 10:17 pm

This thread is a harsh noise wall of text.

I think live HNW can be good...was not impressed with seeing the Rita live although he sat down in a wingbavk chair during the set...that was hilariously cool.

How long did it go on...I have no idea but a bit too long for me.

I like this guys live HNW...but his recorded material doesn't come across the same to me.



Does the length of time matter?
Only so far as it relates to ones personal enjoyment.
3 minutes of HNW is enough for me
1.5 minutes would be better
I understand wanting to zone out and drop into the noise but having worked in environments that are all day harsh noise walls it just doesn't appeal to me as something to listen to...now making it is fun.
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Re: HNW question

Post by Social_Drift » Tue Jan 14, 2020 11:49 pm

Shrouded_Recordings wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 6:33 am
I fully support and promote what I refer to as “
Small Walls”. If it’s still an unrelenting claustrophobic cavernous wall but short in nature it’s is still an acceptable practice and discipline to me
what's wrong with "short noise walls" eh?

:lol:
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Re: HNW question

Post by pickle » Wed Jan 15, 2020 4:45 am

JLIAT wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 4:22 pm
pickle wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 2:08 pm
i personally like a good hot dog. perhaps missing the point that there is a point is the point. even without the mustard.
Sure you're missing the point and enjoying it. There is a point and then there's whatever point you like. Just paying for the hot dog, or thinking you have to go to a football game, pay for that and the hot dog. If that's your thing fine.
okay, how bout we leave out the hot dog for the moment. i just had lunch anyway. we can come back to it later if anyone gets the munchies.

just to see if i'm reading you right, the moment one starts listening one is missing the point because listening is a more active than passive venture. hearing noise works. listening doesn't. something along these lines? i'm sure i've missed your point and no doubt the point but here i'd like to invoke T. Mikawa noise guy via T. Riley ambient guy whose aims included assisting the listener in losing sense of time. without a sense of time or say relative position or self the point fades. here i'd suggest that one can probably go in hard, listening real freaking hard, hard as freaking hell with all kinds of hardass points and pointed reasons and such but end up losing sense of time, of perspective, position. and then accidentally getting the point without having there intended. damn! so then perhaps the possibility of both getting and missing the point, perhaps not at the same time but during the same listening session. as for correct and precise duration, i can say that at least as far as riley apparently lengthy duration is key to the process of eroding the sense of time.

perhaps the point is undeserving of the definite article though The Rita certainly thought otherwise. don't see any hnw project with the name A Rita getting props. still this stuff with riley and time and such in relation to The Almighty Point chafes a bit insofar as it can come across as somewhat dogmatic can it not?

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Re: HNW question

Post by JLIAT » Wed Jan 15, 2020 10:32 am

RUBBISH wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 10:17 pm


Does the length of time matter?
Only so far as it relates to ones personal enjoyment.
Our erstwhile provider of this forum used the following sub text regarding HNW
No ideas, no changes, no development, no entertainment, and no remorse
Now can you see something of a lacunae?

Maybe not. If so what you are getting from certain HNW is not what is intended. Maybe deliberate or by ignorance - IDK.

Next bit is developing this, so maybe irrelevant to your aesthetic, if so please ignore.

The idea of any art being merely about personal enjoyment means in effect it is OK to ignore stuff one doesn't like.
But much of art that is original was often not generally liked. I myself could not see why people thought Matisse a good painter, until the penny dropped as they say. Likewise Mahler, on first hearing I laughed, subsequently hearing the same piece reduced me to tears. The experience of such for me similar to seeing Skiddaw, a mountain in the lake district, a feeling of the sublime.

You might call a feeling of the sublime 'personal enjoyment' but I think it has more to it than that. In that it both has in it an element of fear and dread, derived from the experience which overwhelms the (personal) senses.

Such art can be life changing, and risky, for good or bad, not then enjoyment. OK there is a recent tendency to turn the Tate gallery into Disneyland, and make all art Fun. I remember being made (by a boss) to take teenagers to see Shindlers list. They enjoyed the violence and cruelty, laughing at it and cheering... OK they had fun. OK?

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Re: HNW question

Post by Soloman Tump » Wed Jan 15, 2020 11:16 am

Image

Looks like I opened a can of harsh noise worms here!

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Re: HNW question

Post by Social_Drift » Wed Jan 15, 2020 11:36 am

most of this is just snobbery. do say appreciate or art, don't say like or fun.

the phrase "Mono goto ni Suki konomu Koto nashi" is translated by wikipedia as "have non preferences", by google translate as "i like everything", and by this academic translator as "“I will not seek elegance and beauty in all things."

while we may not be speaking different languages, we do have different experiences and cultures

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Re: HNW question

Post by Social_Drift » Wed Jan 15, 2020 11:43 am

imho we assess the seriousness of someone not by the words they use on a forum, but, as listeners, if they agree with me, and as artists the quality of their work.

i can't emphasise the last point enough -- irregardless of how vomir talks about his work, not all noise walls work as well and are as well made. lacking dynamics change and ideas is just not enough, unless you want to package up noise as uninteresting conceptual art.

it may not be obvious, but that's what we have art critics for.

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Re: HNW question

Post by JLIAT » Wed Jan 15, 2020 11:46 am

pickle wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 4:45 am
just to see if i'm reading you right, the moment one starts listening one is missing the point because listening is a more active than passive venture. hearing noise works. listening doesn't. something along these lines? i'm sure i've missed your point
You seem to be contrasting listening to hearing, which is not my point. My point is this, in some noise, some HNW (and ONLY some perhaps HNW – Vomir and similar) SOUND is not important, not the thing. Sound is dependent of time, but a form which isn't dependent on sound has no need of duration. (This does NOT so radically apply to HN – but might have consequences)

Such radical ideas are not new and exist elsewhere. Notably The Fountain, in which we have non-retinal art. A simple phrase- but in terms of what fine art and galleries were for and about- revolutionary. (A revolution some wish to ignore – and understandably) I'll elaborate here, the impact of the fountain was profound, and at the exhibition where it first established its affect, it was in fact never exhibited!

The films of Warhol, such as Empire - 8 ½ hours of nothing much happening – the lights go on?! Does one need to watch the movie – 8 ½ hours – or simply see a still, or read a description. Later in the 70s 'The dematerialization of the Art object', latter still “Conceptual Poetry” - i.e. poetry which in some cases need not be read. i.e. reading it or not makes no difference to the poems status qua poem, and would not help you to 'get it'.

Ergo – HNW represents the same kind of thing. What was thought the essence of sound, duration, and an essence of music, is no longer essential.

The point then is maybe, 'but you do need to hear a bit'. Maybe. But if HNW is to have the same credentials as above non-retinal art – non-cochlear sonic art (Seth Kim-Cohen ) need not be heard.
A particular Vomir release makes the point I think. A CD, a vinyl with 33 1/3 side A 45 rpm side B.
Sounds the same. Maybe an argument can be made to the effect one must at least listen to s short piece. Maybe, but that runs against the 'revolutionary' idea, or anti-idea. And leads to discussing of the sound quality of various HNW, and its length. A move back towards the significance of sound as duration. (Maybe the problematic of if not duration what then is sound? Nothing? ...an idea) Those who see music as organised sound and sound as duration, and the appreciation of such in ones reactions to this, enjoyment, maybe needn't bother with such questions.

Anyway – i've gone on far too much already. But if you read the thread you see i'm caught between the devil and the deep blue sea. I'm either too sketchy and authoritative, or TLDR.
pickle wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 4:45 am

and no doubt the point but here i'd like to invoke T. Mikawa noise guy via T. Riley ambient guy whose aims included assisting the listener in losing sense of time. without a sense of time or say relative position or self the point fades. here i'd suggest that one can probably go in hard, listening real freaking hard, hard as freaking hell with all kinds of hardass points and pointed reasons and such but end up losing sense of time, of perspective, position. and then accidentally getting the point without having there intended. damn! so then perhaps the possibility of both getting and missing the point, perhaps not at the same time but during the same listening session. as for correct and precise duration, i can say that at least as far as riley apparently lengthy duration is key to the process of eroding the sense of time.
If the Riley here is the Terry of in C and Poppy Nogood, i'm very familiar to this stuff. It blew me away on first hearing at college in 1970. I did wince at “ ambient guy” - that with respect, that is Brian Eno. Riley was considered a minimalist, but no matter, and sure I actually said such works, like drones (they are not) have the feeling of extended temporality until time ceases. His concerts lasted all night.... And you talk of 'hard listening' for sure. Became “Deep Listening” (The Deep Listening Band - Pauline Oliveros)... Charlemagne Palestine et al.

Not my point at all, though amazing stuff.
pickle wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 4:45 am
perhaps the point is undeserving of the definite article though The Rita certainly thought otherwise. don't see any hnw project with the name A Rita getting props. still this stuff with riley and time and such in relation to The Almighty Point chafes a bit insofar as it can come across as somewhat dogmatic can it not?
Sorry, I cant follow this last bit. I do see traces of aesthetic in Sam McKinlay's work, but traces.
And this is already far too long and far far too long for some... :-)

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