harsh NW

No ideas, no changes, no development, no entertainment, and no remorse
User avatar
pickle
Noise Person
Posts: 40
Joined: Fri Dec 27, 2019 2:13 pm
Has thanked: 2 times
Been thanked: 11 times

Re: harsh NW

Post by pickle » Sun Mar 01, 2020 2:01 pm

JLIAT wrote:
Sun Mar 01, 2020 1:04 pm
In your case I think you seemed to say you enjoy the sensation of the effectively damaging noise.
well, that's the (harsh, violent, abrading) rub of it, init? that contradiction. that I don't, honestly, really, truly, think I enjoy the sensation of the effectively damaging noise but that if it weren't effectively damaging at some level perhaps i wouldn't enjoy it. i couldn't, honestly really truly, say for sure because harsh noise is what it is. i enjoy it, and it is what it is. as you mention there are three letters repping three elements and i simply want to to explore the first because i feel has not been commented upon so very much...probably because the only thing to say on the subject is, "like, duh!" but i still feel, if we are going to ramble on about the other two elements, this one, the first, ought to get its fair share. and i still feel like some of the critics have somehow managed to avoid it by referencing, for example, bombs or other extreme immediate-hearing-destroying-devices. i don't think this quite addresses a person who will tell you they have progressively shaved 30% off their ability to hear simply by virtue of enjoying the shit. scuse my french.

User avatar
JLIAT
Merzwow
Posts: 447
Joined: Fri Jan 10, 2020 4:30 pm
Has thanked: 8 times
Been thanked: 97 times

Re: harsh NW

Post by JLIAT » Sun Mar 01, 2020 2:19 pm

I missed another element of Harsh, that of the use of square waves, (and saw) often from guitar distortion pedals, where a signal is clipped to make it harsher, more square waves, and harmonics.

I think the most significant term in HNW is Wall. Japnoise and much of the 80s / 90s where Noise Music can be identified as genre was referred to as Harsh Noise, The Rita HN... the Wall element was taking HN to even more of an extreme. As in "no change" etc of Vomir.

Given that guitarists have since the 60s used fuzz pedals, to make their sound harsher, I think the move is from musical harshness, to noise harshness, to harsh noise wall.
"Cage's 4'33" = 273 seconds −273.15° C = absolute zero."

User avatar
NoiseWiki
Wiki Bastard
Posts: 1182
Joined: Thu Apr 04, 2019 10:38 pm
Has thanked: 931 times
Been thanked: 562 times
Contact:

Re: harsh NW

Post by NoiseWiki » Sun Mar 01, 2020 2:38 pm

I'm not sure if it really counts but my earliest exposure to the idea if a harsh noise wall was reading about NON in the ReSearch Industrial Culture book in the late 80s. Not really sure what inspired Boyd .. I guess at the time it seemed the main idea was to torment the audience
These users thanked the author NoiseWiki for the post (total 3):
Pigswill (Sun Mar 01, 2020 8:41 pm) • RUBBISH (Sun Mar 01, 2020 10:51 pm) • WhiteWarlock (Tue Mar 03, 2020 5:44 am)
Rating: 33.33%

User avatar
RUBBISH
Merzaniac
Posts: 1321
Joined: Fri Nov 22, 2019 5:37 pm
Location: Home
Has thanked: 907 times
Been thanked: 652 times

Re: harsh NW

Post by RUBBISH » Sun Mar 01, 2020 10:50 pm

The hearing issue isnt really because of Noise but it hasnt helped.
GO GET YOUR HEARING CHECKED.

Doing a noise show where people dont like noise is hilarious but now days it seems more rare at least for me to do a show where people are actually angry at the noise.
People really seems to enjoy the antics and the noise.
I do like tormenting people but I prefer people to be appreciative of what I did...do...will do.
Reynard The Fox Says Fuck You
How quickly the creepy becomes commonplace.

User avatar
JLIAT
Merzwow
Posts: 447
Joined: Fri Jan 10, 2020 4:30 pm
Has thanked: 8 times
Been thanked: 97 times

Re: harsh NW

Post by JLIAT » Mon Mar 02, 2020 8:56 am

RUBBISH wrote:
Sun Mar 01, 2020 10:50 pm
….
People really seems to enjoy the antics and the noise.
I do like tormenting people but I prefer people to be appreciative of what I did...do...will do.

Question: Do you find any link with those very ancient traditions... together for instance with the part played by the fool in King Lear as being the King's sub conscious? In that your work might be in someway similarly appeal to the sub conscious...

Or this...

In England, the Lord of Misrule – known in Scotland as the Abbot of Unreason and in France as the Prince des Sots – was an officer appointed by lot during Christmastide to preside over the Feast of Fools.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_of_Misrule


Image
"Cage's 4'33" = 273 seconds −273.15° C = absolute zero."

User avatar
RUBBISH
Merzaniac
Posts: 1321
Joined: Fri Nov 22, 2019 5:37 pm
Location: Home
Has thanked: 907 times
Been thanked: 652 times

Re: harsh NW

Post by RUBBISH » Mon Mar 02, 2020 1:39 pm

By antics I mean not just fucking sitting there twiddling knobs like the of couple boring modular synth users ive seen in the last 18 month all those options and yet its still boring....exception...Sickness...he was good

The tone of your question is...I'll leave it...not sure why your comments seems to have this certain tone to them. Its odd if its accidental and if its on purpose...ill keep that to my self...
hope its not on purpose bro dude man guy.

but ah yeah, maybe, I dont know, on stage I am the king thats how the stage works.

Do I serve the purpose mentioned...no mostly but depends on the person.

Its probably just seeing something different than normal and not really anything of deep meaning.
Reynard The Fox Says Fuck You
How quickly the creepy becomes commonplace.

User avatar
JLIAT
Merzwow
Posts: 447
Joined: Fri Jan 10, 2020 4:30 pm
Has thanked: 8 times
Been thanked: 97 times

Re: harsh NW

Post by JLIAT » Mon Mar 02, 2020 2:11 pm

RUBBISH wrote:
Mon Mar 02, 2020 1:39 pm
By antics I mean not just fucking sitting there twiddling knobs like the of couple boring modular synth users ive seen in the last 18 month all those options and yet its still boring....exception...Sickness...he was good

The tone of your question is...I'll leave it...not sure why your comments seems to have this certain tone to them. Its odd if its accidental and if its on purpose...ill keep that to my self...
hope its not on purpose bro dude man guy.

but ah yeah, maybe, I dont know, on stage I am the king thats how the stage works.

Do I serve the purpose mentioned...no mostly but depends on the person.

Its probably just seeing something different than normal and not really anything of deep meaning.
Sorry about my tone. Might be me, or maybe asking questions can raise, justifiably, suspicions. But it was a serious question - not directed at you specifically, regarding such social phenomena. A sort of human collected need to go mad, if only for one day. A Freudian would have a field day.

Its something which interests me, there's a relief of a beautiful greek woman in the British Museum, but on a closer look she's holding a dismembered calf in her hand... "The rite climaxed in a performance of frenzied feats of strength and madness, such as uprooting trees, tearing a bull (the symbol of Dionysus) apart with their bare hands, an act called sparagmos, and eating its flesh raw, an act called omophagia."

Seems the very rational greeks needed to let of steam, as they say... and through history we have such figures, rites etc. The likes of Punch and Judy, were Mr Punch is exceedingly violent, "They may well kiss and dance before Judy requests Mr. Punch to look after the baby. Punch will fail to carry out this task appropriately. It is rare for Punch to hit his baby these days, but he may well sit on it in a failed attempt to "babysit", or drop it, or even let it go through a sausage machine. In any event, Judy will return, will be outraged, will fetch a stick, and the knockabout will commence."

Your comment about the audience interaction with Mr Rubbish reminded me of these things.

Image

And there remains in the UK odd 'festivals'... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/'Obby_'Oss_festival

Pagan... and The Green Man...

This is the oss - he is quite violent - really!

Image

The girls try to get under his cape- a fertility thing, he fights them off.

Edit:

I suppose this could relate to Xdugef also - not the girls under the cape thing.


"Its probably just seeing something different than normal and not really anything of deep meaning"

Maybe - or tapping into something deeper than meaning. Humans seem need to do odd things... at times...
These users thanked the author JLIAT for the post:
RUBBISH (Mon Mar 02, 2020 3:20 pm)
Rating: 11.11%
"Cage's 4'33" = 273 seconds −273.15° C = absolute zero."

User avatar
pickle
Noise Person
Posts: 40
Joined: Fri Dec 27, 2019 2:13 pm
Has thanked: 2 times
Been thanked: 11 times

Re: harsh NW

Post by pickle » Tue Mar 03, 2020 10:27 am

JLIAT wrote:
Sun Mar 01, 2020 2:19 pm
I think the most significant term in HNW is Wall.
well i certainly did get that much at least. and i think I'm in very close to complete agreement as far as the w repping the limit of where the initial creative act can go. there really is nothing that can be added to or taken away from a wall once you hit it.

i'm also interested in the secondary or perhaps tertiary creative act. the point where the initial creator loses control and where the listener comes in. playing back the recorded noise on your home stereo is, after all, creating noise. or at least re-creating it. and here the noise will be re-created per listener-determined factors. direct control is possible, for instance by regulating the volume, or the frequency, if not infrequently modulating or filtering the actual tones...this last especially if the listener were of the more "hands on" noiseperson sort of persuasion. i think this is a not insignificant part of the creative process and the reason that harsh noise need not be harsh...just turn that shit down. and as i'm sure everyone here would know, turning the shit down, or up, especially when it is so minimal in nature, can massively vary the character of the sound, very much in the way of minimal drone a la eliane radigue.

so the w is certainly the end all, if not be all, but perhaps only so far as the initial creator is deemed to have control over it.

User avatar
JLIAT
Merzwow
Posts: 447
Joined: Fri Jan 10, 2020 4:30 pm
Has thanked: 8 times
Been thanked: 97 times

Re: harsh NW

Post by JLIAT » Tue Mar 03, 2020 11:53 am

Turning the volume down on a HNW track will not affect the essential lack of information in the piece. Whilst, say turning up the volume of music which has structures will cause these to alter if not disappear. Which is why HNW can be regarded as being minimally music, just as the term was applied to fine art. “Minimally Art”. The characteristics of Noise has been 'mapped' by Nick Collins using SCMIR. I've discussed this elsewhere and for my part used much simpler and cruder methods. Collins' works shows a non-subjective analysis of the distinctive form of Noise (music). My own the distinctive 'trace' of HNW. http://www.jliat.com/deviant.pdf I've some free hard copies if anyone is interested – but doubt they are, Collins' works received a hostile academic reaction...

The 'Wall' is obvious, as is the Noise, lack of structures, as for 'Harsh' the particular definition '(of reality or a fact) grim and unpalatable. blunt · bald · bare · simple' can be considered, as can the term 'Brutal' – which chimes with a form of minimal architecture, and Vomir's description of his works.

At one time those wanting to see other things in artworks had difficulties, now gone in Post-Modernism's, 'whatever it means to you is what it means'. A position that reduces everything to nonsense, or one which by virtue of that will disappear, though some here want to do 'things' with HNW. Rather than take the HNW 'Bull' by the horns, they seek to 'milk it'.... :-) Or go to sea in a sieve....
"Cage's 4'33" = 273 seconds −273.15° C = absolute zero."

User avatar
pickle
Noise Person
Posts: 40
Joined: Fri Dec 27, 2019 2:13 pm
Has thanked: 2 times
Been thanked: 11 times

Re: harsh NW

Post by pickle » Wed Mar 04, 2020 1:59 pm

JLIAT wrote:
Tue Mar 03, 2020 11:53 am
Turning the volume down on a HNW track will not affect the essential lack of information in the piece. Whilst, say turning up the volume of music which has structures will cause these to alter if not disappear. Which is why HNW can be regarded as being minimally music, just as the term was applied to fine art. “Minimally Art”. The characteristics of Noise has been 'mapped' by Nick Collins using SCMIR. I've discussed this elsewhere and for my part used much simpler and cruder methods. Collins' works shows a non-subjective analysis of the distinctive form of Noise (music). My own the distinctive 'trace' of HNW. http://www.jliat.com/deviant.pdf I've some free hard copies if anyone is interested – but doubt they are, Collins' works received a hostile academic reaction...

The 'Wall' is obvious, as is the Noise, lack of structures, as for 'Harsh' the particular definition '(of reality or a fact) grim and unpalatable. blunt · bald · bare · simple' can be considered, as can the term 'Brutal' – which chimes with a form of minimal architecture, and Vomir's description of his works.

At one time those wanting to see other things in artworks had difficulties, now gone in Post-Modernism's, 'whatever it means to you is what it means'. A position that reduces everything to nonsense, or one which by virtue of that will disappear, though some here want to do 'things' with HNW.
well i think this is a bit of an overstatement. things happen with hnw simply by virtue of people approaching from a myriad of different angles and contexts. playback configurations. demands of work, life, family. one room, another room. a desire to do something, or nothing. complaints of neighbors. life gets in the way of the the ability of the hnw to properly hnw the life. "oh baby, i'm so gonna hnw your ass." "uh, excuse me there hnw, mind if i go to the bathroom first?" maybe hnw will simply have to live with that. not i'm sure that it cares. stuff happens regardless, some of it harsh and some of it very probably not <flush>

still very interesting re how turning down an hnw will not affect the essential lack of information. tell that to the poorly abused ears.

but more seriously, tell that to anyone who insists they perceive otherwise. what is there to say? the mathematics, or the map, prove your feelings wrong? you appear to have made a wrong turn at 7.3 khz? damnit it honey i knew we shoulda been attenuating at 7.2.

btw would be very interested in the hard copies you mention.

Locked