harsh NW

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RUBBISH
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Re: harsh NW

Post by RUBBISH » Wed Mar 04, 2020 2:24 pm

I recall late 1990s a record store lady telling me that Japanese noise was more frantic and frenetic than American noise, was more Harsh than American noise.

Not sure where this fits with all this but there ya go.
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pickle (Wed Mar 04, 2020 2:25 pm)
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Re: harsh NW

Post by pickle » Wed Mar 04, 2020 2:28 pm

RUBBISH wrote:
Wed Mar 04, 2020 2:24 pm
I recall late 1990s a record store lady telling me that Japanese noise was more frantic and frenetic than American noise, was more Harsh than American noise.
my life partner always knows when i'm listening to certain of the harsher strains of japanese noise, even on headphones. this is usually signaled by the formerly open door being shut and the said partner being absent the house by the time i make it back out of the noise zone and into the land of the living...

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Re: harsh NW

Post by JLIAT » Wed Mar 04, 2020 4:33 pm

pickle wrote:
Wed Mar 04, 2020 1:59 pm

well i think this is a bit of an overstatement. things happen with hnw simply by virtue of people approaching from a myriad of different angles and contexts. playback configurations. demands of work, life, family. one room, another room. a desire to do something, or nothing. complaints of neighbors. life gets in the way of the the ability of the hnw to properly hnw the life. "oh baby, i'm so gonna hnw your ass." "uh, excuse me there hnw, mind if i go to the bathroom first?" maybe hnw will simply have to live with that. not i'm sure that it cares. stuff happens regardless, some of it harsh and some of it very probably not <flush>
HNW as a musical style will (IMO) become just what you say above, though given the nature of its form and content I doubt that this lack will be sufficient to sustain it. Even setting it in some social, political context... i've written elsewhere I can imagine it becoming similar, if not in sound in practice, to Wandelweiser.
pickle wrote:
Wed Mar 04, 2020 1:59 pm
still very interesting re how turning down an hnw will not affect the essential lack of information. tell that to the poorly abused ears.
The abuse is down to volume not information. I personally had tinnitus for several days after a Slade concert of songs with lyrics. And Symphony orchestras can and do reach high volumes, sufficient for recent Health and Safety claims by orchestra members.
pickle wrote:
Wed Mar 04, 2020 1:59 pm

but more seriously, tell that to anyone who insists they perceive otherwise. what is there to say? the mathematics, or the map, prove your feelings wrong? you appear to have made a wrong turn at 7.3 khz? damnit it honey i knew we shoulda been attenuating at 7.2.

btw would be very interested in the hard copies you mention.
I'm not sure what you are getting at here? Sure people do respond subjectively to perceptions. But in some cases these can be 'questionable'. From hearing 'voices' in static to thinking Helter Skelter is an incitement to race war. And there are sonic illusions comparable to optical ones.



But the analysis of music / art is properly not to remove the subjective experience, unless say its simply an illusion, hearing harmonies where there arn't any, seeing pictures and messages in randomness.

PM me with a postal address if you want the book...
"Cage's 4'33" = 273 seconds −273.15° C = absolute zero."

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Re: harsh NW

Post by pickle » Fri Mar 06, 2020 3:46 pm

i think what i wanted to say regarding the lack of information in the hnw, and my preoccupation with secondary or tertiary creation of noise, goes something like this- we're having this conversation, right? not in the primary but at least in the secondary or tertiary phase. so the hnw is communicating whether it wants to or not.

and the abuse of the ears is, still, information. and i would argue, exceedingly relevant information. how long can one argue about the nuances of sound if one's ability to hear has been erased? i realize that other kinds of sound production (eg bombs, or even a damn symphony orchestra) can damage the ears. but none of these is as necessarily engaged in the possibility, exclusively, of damaging the ears. i would then suggest that the information that this shit can and possibly is meant to damage the ears, and only the ears, is relevant.


footnote
extraneous to the immediate above, but i'd earlier wanted to flop this out- that a noiseperson listening to harsh physically damaging noise telling you "i don't find it harsh" is the funniest caricature since monty python's the black knight

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Re: harsh NW

Post by JLIAT » Fri Mar 06, 2020 6:21 pm

pickle wrote:
Fri Mar 06, 2020 3:46 pm
i think what i wanted to say regarding the lack of information in the hnw, and my preoccupation with secondary or tertiary creation of noise, goes something like this- we're having this conversation, right? not in the primary but at least in the secondary or tertiary phase. so the hnw is communicating whether it wants to or not.
In that sense everything that occupies you, communicates. Or everything one can converse about. But in the case of noise any information cannot be within the noise itself.
pickle wrote:
Fri Mar 06, 2020 3:46 pm
and the abuse of the ears is, still, information. and i would argue, exceedingly relevant information.
Then you are using the term in an odd way. Or generalizing it to the point of everything and nothing being information. As such one could never 'get it wrong'. So I think the novels of Dickens are great, they are so colourful in the book case, much better than Eliot.
pickle wrote:
Fri Mar 06, 2020 3:46 pm

how long can one argue about the nuances of sound if one's ability to hear has been erased?
Arguing about the nuance of HNW seems odd to me. And certainly odd to some of the performers. I don't think there are subtle differences. And noise exists not just in sound, so the ability to hear, as certain artists of noise have said, is besides the point.
pickle wrote:
Fri Mar 06, 2020 3:46 pm
i realize that other kinds of sound production (eg bombs, or even a damn symphony orchestra) can damage the ears. but none of these is as necessarily engaged in the possibility, exclusively, of damaging the ears.
Or is noise, most take precautions when listening to avoid damage. If damaging ones ears is the thing, any loud sounds will do.
pickle wrote:
Fri Mar 06, 2020 3:46 pm
i would then suggest that the information that this shit can and possibly is meant to damage the ears, and only the ears, is relevant.
I don't think so - or do some of the practitioners. They claim 'no meaning'...
pickle wrote:
Fri Mar 06, 2020 3:46 pm
footnote
extraneous to the immediate above, but i'd earlier wanted to flop this out- that a noiseperson listening to harsh physically damaging noise telling you "i don't find it harsh" is the funniest caricature since monty python's the black knight
I think the noiseperson listening to noise because they think its about damage to ears has got it wrong. I base this on performances, and associated texts, the fact that any recorded media cannot of necessity achieve this. It's harsh in the unrelenting sound at any volume, in that it refuses any change, any nuances that makes music a sensuous phenomena, and or expression etc.
"Cage's 4'33" = 273 seconds −273.15° C = absolute zero."

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Re: harsh NW

Post by RUBBISH » Fri Mar 06, 2020 6:25 pm

List all the rock albums that have
PLAY AT MAXIMUM VOLUME
on the record sleeve.

The Damned - damned damned damned
Is one I can name off hand

Why does it say that...the mix?
Fashion?

HNW is fashionable
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Re: harsh NW

Post by pickle » Tue Mar 10, 2020 2:49 pm

JLIAT wrote:
Fri Mar 06, 2020 6:21 pm
in the case of noise any information cannot be within the noise itself.
no argument, and i'm beginning to suspect there was no argument to start with. just different preferences for how the harsh nw may be framed. for instance, exclusively as a time-bound sound event that is bound to cause damage at one point or another, to self and or equipment, regardless of how one frames it. no information in there. none whatsoever. that you should have worn earplugs- extraneous.
If damaging ones ears is the thing
i would prefer to claim damaging the ears as a thing rather than the thing. it is there. it happens. the harsh reception of the nw. show me a field of artistic endeavor where one records the ear-demolishing potential of, say, a bomb, onto a recordable medium for the express purpose of playback and i'll show you a noise cd.

if harsh isn't your thing it need not be the thing or in fact any-thing. it is probable that at some point the recipient of the harsh determines that the harsh is not desirable, at which point it ceases to be (harsh), by virtue of one or another filter (eg the volume knob).

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Re: harsh NW

Post by JLIAT » Tue Mar 10, 2020 5:48 pm

pickle wrote:
Tue Mar 10, 2020 2:49 pm

If damaging ones ears is the thing
i would prefer to claim damaging the ears as a thing rather than the thing. it is there. it happens. the harsh reception of the nw. show me a field of artistic endeavor where one records the ear-demolishing potential of, say, a bomb, onto a recordable medium for the express purpose of playback and i'll show you a noise cd.
Any recording can be used to damage ones ears. There are recordings of steam trains, mechanical devices, sound effects... and examples from modern music, Stockhausen, Ligeti... etc.
note: we are discussing here HNW, Harsh Noise Wall, not noise. HNW is a particular sub-genre of Noise (music). One can claim all sounds are noises, but here the term relates to a specific genre.
pickle wrote:
Tue Mar 10, 2020 2:49 pm

if harsh isn't your thing it need not be the thing or in fact any-thing. it is probable that at some point the recipient of the harsh determines that the harsh is not desirable, at which point it ceases to be (harsh), by virtue of one or another filter (eg the volume knob).
But you've taken the term 'harsh' in the same way as 'noise', out of its context of defining a genre and into a particular physical quality, one shared by all noise, the possibility of causing auditory damage. If you want to damage your hearing with harsh sounds there are any number of works which will do this. The levels at a live Vomir performance are insufficient to cause such damage, as the Harsh in his 'seminal' HNW works is not physical but 'conceptual'.
Proclamation of the Bruitist Wall 

The individual no longer has an alternative but to completely refuse the promoted and preached contemporary life.
The only still free behavior is the noise and withdrawal, to never surrender to handling, socialization, and entertainment. The Bruitist Wall does not promise to repeatedly provide a direction and values with the lived existence. 
The opaque, dull and continuous noise allows a total phenomenologic reduction, a means against the existential interpenetration : disengaged in the pure and unaltered bestial appeasing. 
The Bruitist Wall is pro outsider, the voluntary outsider. 
It calls in question the institution of any relation, all that destroys occurs. 
The Bruitist Wall is a social challenge. 
Direction du Mur Bruitiste: Ordre Abîmiste
(2006)

Note: 'Brutal' is used, but again its not a physically damaging brutalism.

Which in architecture refers to an aesthetic, not to physical damage.
Brutalist buildings are usually constructed with reoccurring modular elements forming masses representing specific functional zones, distinctly articulated and grouped together into a unified whole. Concrete is used for its raw and unpretentious honesty, thus contrasting dramatically with the highly refined and ornamented buildings constructed in the elite Beaux-Arts style.
"Cage's 4'33" = 273 seconds −273.15° C = absolute zero."

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Re: harsh NW

Post by pickle » Wed Mar 11, 2020 6:02 am

i had to censor myself from apologizing for the emphasis on the harsh part of the hnw. that emphasis was after all the whole premise of the topic here. i do concede i tend to suffer from an affliction of call it over-generalisis so you'll have to pardon me but from where i sit pretty much all noise is noise whether it's got the h or the w attached to it. i'm not about to put one over another, i love it all, though i'm sure sometimes probably one gets in the system more readily than another. recordings of steam trains, mechanical devices, sound effects... and examples from modern music, Stockhausen, Ligeti... etc are obviously all a pretty big deal for most people involved in noise at one point or another. the overlap is possibly getting even more pronounced in recent years which is a plus in my book. and by overlap i include the literal source material sort of overlap among more conceptual sorts of overlap. this information may or may not be of interest to the listener, and probably much less so if we are talking about, say, orchestral music sourced wall noise. but i don't think it much of a stretch to suggest that noisemaking persons tend to enjoy a fairly wide range of different sonic-sensual inspirations.

still none of the examples in italics are so strictly geared toward playback or performance at excessively loud, or harsh, levels. what people put in to our take out of the equation matters. call it my noise version of the guns don't kill people argument. fortunately noise transactions are not to this point quite so readily regulated as those involving firearms, i digress. there's the thing. the people coming into the equation whether more from the giving or the receiving end, the people matter. the people are the ones who make the noise noise or make it harsh. and who by strictly following the directions on the box can also make it wall.

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Re: harsh NW

Post by JLIAT » Wed Mar 11, 2020 9:03 am

I don't think excessive loud performances are particular to HNW or even Noise. Heavy Metal and even POP music is often very loud. And as I said @ a Vomir performance the volume was tolerable.

Perhaps in PE volume was part of a sonic attack on the audience, as also maybe in Noise Music. But in HNW, as I cited the harshness is a conceptual denial, not an auditory affect.

Of course you are free to see the H in HNW in anyway you wish, but there are dangers.

“Impressionist” painters didn't mimic other painters.

Or is the WALL literally a wall. And whilst the N in noise music / PE might have an 'unpleasant sound*' connotation / definition, from Vomir et. al. it is more likely the lack of communication.

*not really satisfactory as some 'like' the sound of Noise Music. Perhaps many...
"Cage's 4'33" = 273 seconds −273.15° C = absolute zero."

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